From Stage to Screen: Unpacking Creativity with Paul Cram

Create Art Podcast interview Paul Cram. Hello, friend.This is Timothy Keem O'Brien, your head instigator for Create Art Podcast, where I bring my over 30 years of experience in the arts and education world to help you tame your inner critic and create more than you consume. In this episode, I'm going to be speaking with Paul Cram.Now, he's based in the Twin Cities of Minnesota, and he has graced both local and national screens, sharing scenes with talents like Woody Harrelson, Cillian Murphy, and Susan Sarandon. Beyond the camera, he's a voracious reader and founder of the Men who Read book club, boasting over 85 members since its inception in 2019.Now, when he's not acting or reading, Paul indulges in gardening, queer sports, and enjoying pop culture, movies and shows. It was such a delight to talk with Paul. He's. He's, you know, he does the acting thing.And as you know me, I have a degree in theater, so it was, it was a great conversation that we had. You know, acting is kind of a. I'm not an actor like Paul is. I'm just going to stay. State that right there for you.But a lot of the insights that he shares with us with acting, I think we can apply to our artistic practice no matter what we do. So I'm going to step back and play for you the interview that I had with Paul Cram. Okay. And we're live.All right, everyone, thank you for joining us here on Create Art Podcast. I have the privilege of having Paul on the show here tonight. Paul, how is it up there in the Twin Cities for you tonight?

It's good. It's good. You know, we're kind of in that really interesting in between stage between winter and spring.So, like, some days there's snow on the ground and the next day we're all wearing shorts, and then we're wearing, you know, our parka. I don't know, it just. Every day is a little different, but it's. It's going well.

Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, it's that, you know, wait five minutes, the weather will change for sure. Sure.

Exactly. Yeah.

Well, I wanted to get right into the questions here for you. First one I have up here is it's going to be a little bit odd, but I think you might like it.

If I can roll with that. Maybe. We'll see.

If you don't, we can edit it.

If we don't, we don't.

But if creativity were a physical place, what would yours look like?

If creativity were A physical place. What would it look like?

Hmm.

I think it would look like, gosh, you know, what's coming in my head is more of like a workshop, kind of like a work where you actually have all the tools that you need to create. So I feel like that's the space that I'm imagining, like, where it's like, this is the place to make things. That's what it would.A nice, warm workshop that has all the tools needed to create. I keep getting visuals of, like, painting that kind of a vibe. So that's what it would look like to me.

Awesome. Awesome. And with a lot of coffee there too. I would have to have that there.

I actually. I've been told not to drink coffee by people that have. I feel like I have a lot of energy in general, and I might be that guy that.Yeah, it would be interesting. I think I'd come out with, like, some art that's very, like, Jackson Pollock esque or something.

All right, well, then we're just gonna pop over to your studio and drink some coffee and make some art.

Drink some coffee and do something with it.

I love it. I love it.Something we talk a lot about here on Korean Art Podcast is, you know, being creatively blocked or having that writer's block or actor's block. I'm not a huge fan of that idea. I kind of take Seth Godin's view of, you know, a plumber doesn't have plumber's block.They have plumbers crack, but not plumber's block. But have you had times where you felt creatively blocked, and how do you overcome that?

There's a lot of time. I mean, I. We're talking about a lot of different. Different artistic disciplines. You know, I'm as. As an actor, I guess I.Because I do also do, like, I write a little bit. I do a little bit of visual art. You know, even in my day to day. In my.My day to day job, as I work a lot in marketing, which is very visual, there's times when maybe I don't feel as creative or I don't have as many ideas, and that's kind of. I think maybe what we're kind of driving at a little bit. But as far as, like, even as an actor, the.The way in which I guess I would show up has a lot to do with. I feel like acting can be a hard one because there's so much creativity that's already been pumped in, especially with ideas and things like that.Like when I show up on set, when I'M working, the writer's already written and kind of given a framework to what's being done.But there's, there's, there's something actually I've been working on a lot lately for myself with within, like my technique of performing as an actor. And it's finding those.I feel like a good actor like myself, like, it is finding those ideas or inspirations within the framework that already exists. So if I was tapped out and I was, I think a big thing for me is like, if I'm tired, I have a really hard time bringing it. Bringing.So I feel like a lot of things, like if I'm tapped out, if I'm not feeling like I'm creative, it's like, then put the proverbial brush down for a moment and take a walk in nature. Take a nap, take, take a vacation. Do something maybe to get my brain working in it. Maybe not even working, but just like doing something different.But I'm also a big proponent and big fan and you could tell me if you are as well. I'm a big fan also. Where it's like, you know what, sometimes it's, it's numbers over.Like, I might not feel like I'm doing something that's the most amazing, but then it's like, actually, you know what, that was pretty good. And like, I, that inner critic can really turn off sometimes. Where it's like, actually, I just need to do this.I just, I'm going to put the paint to a canvas.I'm going to, even if I'm not feeling it in this moment, like, I have to do another take and I will, you know, and it's like sometimes I feel like I shut myself off when I'm like, I'm so stunted. And it's like, actually the work you're doing is still worth doing.

For sure. For sure. I find that when that inner critic is attacking me because it knows what, you know, he knows what buttons to press to, you know, get me off.I keep a journal of everything that I've done. You know, for podcasts, I've got multiple folders and I can look back at that and go, you know what? I showed up. I made all this happen.So that inner critic obviously doesn't know what he's talking about because I've done all this stuff, you know, I've got art on my walls. I paint like a four year old on crack, but there it is. You know, not everybody has their own art on their walls.

Exactly.And there's something to be said for me especially like something about process where it's like I'm, I'm gonna go through this process, I'm going to, I think I'm talking about perfectionism here. Like as an artist, it's like, oh, it needs to be perfect.And it's like actually that, that could be such an enemy of creativity because like to go off of what you just kind of said too, like, oh my God, like a four year old's art on crack. Like, how great is that? Like, that's fantast. Yeah, I, I, that inner critic definitely in all of us knows how to push our buttons and get us to stop.And I mean actually I'll just share a project that I'm, that it's not necessarily, it's creative but it's not necessarily maybe the biggest art thing. Like I'm working on my literal, my YouTube channel. Like, I'm working on like adjusting and figuring out some of, like, some of the mechanics of that.Like, I've never taken time to do that. Like I'm like, oh, how does YouTube work? And I'm reading books on that and I'm.But in order to do that, I'm having to do literally what you and I are doing right now.Like, I'm literally having to like, oh, I have to record and oh, I have to like have my audio set up and oh, like I have to talk about something or make something or do something and it's like, okay, this is just, it feels very mechanical.Yet at the same time I'm like, if I don't go through this process, I'm not ever going to get to making some of this stuff where it's like, oh, that's really, really inspiring. Message or art or visual or message or you know what I mean? Like I'm all about the message too.So you can't just, I don't know, you can't just start at the top of your game. Like it's like painting childlike art that is on your wall. Like rock it out. Like there's, I don't know. Yeah, there's something in that.There's something in that, that for myself especially, I guess I'm a avid fan. If you can't tell of doing and like doing and maybe you've heard about this, Tim, I think a lot of people have already know about this.But like there was that, I think there was a study. At some point I'd have to look this up, but I don't, I'm not going to. I'm just going to talk about it.There was a study at one point where I think it was a. It was like an art class or something, and they, The.The teacher had half of the students work on one piece of art and it was going to be the best one that they could do. And then he had the other half. He's like, it's not so much about the one piece. It's about quantity, and I want you to do as much as you can get out.And it was actually the people that did quantity that I think came out where it was like, actually they. They learned the most. And actually they had the most interesting pieces, like the most, as opposed to the. The half that were.They were just focusing on one. So that kind of has stuck with me over the years.

I like that. No, because, you know, with some of those.And I'm going to use huge air quotes here that nobody but you and I will see those huge failures that, that we have, you can get some wonderful lessons even better than reading, you know, manuals on how to do YouTube or watching YouTube videos on how to do YouTube.You know, just by going out and doing it, you can learn so much as opposed to just sitting there and going, well, I'm not going to be the, the best podcaster in the world, so I won't do it. I find a lot of great, great ideas in those failures and that. That's how I approach it. But I, I like what you're saying there. I really do.

When I, I. You're echoing something, too, that has been actually really near and dear to my. Myself in my, in my work, in my. As a performer, as an actor.And I've mentioned it on some other podcasts and I've. But I.I'll probably say this until the day I die, but, like, one of the things that my dad told me when I was first, like, going around and knocking on doors and auditioning and just really kind of first getting my feet wet, not knowing what I is. My dad asked me. He's like, but are you being told no? Are people turning you down, like, for roles and for, like, what you're trying to do?And I was like, yes, I am. And. And it's hard. And he's like, good. He's like, it's so good.Because he's like, if you are not being told no, you're not actually trying hard enough. Like you. He's like, being told no is a sign that you are pushing yourself. And he's like, that's something to really be proud of.And I Love that so much. I love it so much where it's like, without failure you're not actually, you're, to me, that's great.It's just like with failure it shows that you're actually pushing yourself. You're trying something, you're, you're like, if we just walk out and oh, we're just amazing artists. Okay, but where's the failure?Where's the, are you pushing yourself?You know, so there's something in that that I just, I've really carried that with me and it's, it's served me really well as a performer, as an actor because there's so much, so much like just you audition for, you know, 10 things and maybe you get a callback to one or two, you know, and there's just a lot of rejection there, if you choose to see it as rejection. But yeah, it was a piece of advice, just in insight that for my dad, that I've always really appreciated.

I'm stealing that. It's going to be on the wall right over here because that, that is gold right there. That is old.

Yeah.

Because you're into a lot of different things, you know, acting, a little bit of writing, painting. Not like a 4 year old on crack, but you know, we'll work on that, we'll work on that. I've got a whole class for you all set up.But with all these different things that you're into, how do you navigate that creative energy required for each medium? Is it the same kind of energy, just a different outlet?Or are you finding, you know, I'm putting 90% into acting, 5% in the writing, 3% into painting or.

That's a good question. I think it's something that I've really, I have grappled with that quite a bit of just over the years of, of the work that I've been doing.Like I actually have, I, I, I don't claim this currently, but in the past I actually have done painting. I've, I was an oil painter. I'm not going to say that I don't still have that in me, you know what I'm saying?But it is that thing of grappling with what do I want to put my time towards and my creative energy.And there was a point I was, I was actually, I was doing paintings, I was working with a gallery, I was selling work and I was, I wasn't happy, I wasn't, I was finding that I was like, this is feeling like a grind. And that to me was really not fulfilling. And it Definitely wasn't something that I was wanting specifically for that creative outlet.I was like, this actually is not good for me as a creative. I do own for myself. I know, I know for myself. I am a creative and I feel like, I feel like that's a.If I'm going to put a label on it, it's like, I'm a creative.Like I, I'm very creative and very good at many different disciplines, but at the end of the day, I'm a creative and that has been really calming of my inner critic anxiety of like, I have to accomplish everything and I must be amazing in this area, this, and I have to do that. And it's like, no, I'm a creative.And that comes with wearing a lot of different hats and being able to move around in a lot of different creative capacities. Be it visual arts, be it writing, be it performing, be it, you know, using my computer and making fun YouTube thumbnails for my videos.You know what I mean? Like, using that creative outlet.And I guess I'm trying to recognize that and see that more where it's like actually even just doing that, it takes, I'm stealing artistic tricks and stuff to make things look good. And it's like that's part of my creative process.And also acknowledging like, for myself too, in my day to day work, when I'm working as, as one who works in marketing, that also is draining my creative bucket.Like that is making it so it's like I actually don't have as much then to take from that and do for my own pet projects or whatever it is I'm working on and acknowledging that and being like, well, I'm, I'm using that and I'm using it to make a living. And there's honor in that for me. Like, it's, it's a good thing. I often get asked the question I'm.And I, I don't know if you could ask this question, Tim, but I often get asked it just in my general life. When people hear, they're like, oh, you're, you're an actor. Well, how come I know I've never heard of you?And, and I'm like, well, you've never heard of me because most of the stuff I've done, it's like tiny little parts and obscure movies, and they're like, well then, so are you really an actor? And it's like, Yeah, I am 100% like.And I'm also an actor who lives in the Twin Cities, which is, I'm very proud of the fact that I've been able to work with some really huge world renowned named performers and I'm doing it in a capacity where I'm like, I'm in a city that this isn't necessarily known for that. So like I'm taking my, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm like, I'm making things, some things work for me.But I always smile at that question where, where for me I feel pretty good about what I'm doing and that's, I think what matters at the end of the day. I, I love accolades too. I'm not, I do not mean to sound like I do not want some accolades for art.Yeah, yeah, it's, it's an interesting, it's interesting. I don't, I guess. Can I put the question back on you a little bit? Like.

Absolutely.

If you put, if you put. Yeah, I answer the same question if you can. I don't know. I'm curious to hear what you think.

Well, a lot of people ask me, you know, well, are you making a lot of money with your podcast and, or, you know, I've heard of Joe Rogan, but I haven't heard of you exactly.You know, and I'm like, well, yeah, he's got a hundred million dollars, you know, he's got a great deal, you know, and I, I guess for me there is a, a line of doing being an amateur and being a professional.

Yeah.

And basically being a professional means I get paid to do what I do. Now do I make my living off of it? You know, is it paying for this house and you know, for this microphone? No, it's not. But I enjoy doing it.I enjoy the people I get to talk to. I enjoy interacting with the listener that is out there and enjoying what I'm saying. Or maybe they're going to sleep to what I'm saying.Doesn't matter, they're listening. That's fine. My, you know, my paintings paint like a four year old on crack. Am I selling them? Probably not, probably not yet.But it's, you know, it's, it does my soul good to get that out, put it on a wall. I've got four books of self published poetry.You know, people have heard of Seamus Haney or John Updike who I have actually met John Updike, but they don't know me. And it's like, great, well here's an opportunity for me to share this with you. Have fun with it. So yeah, that's, that's how I approach it.You know, that's how I approach that question when. When people throw that back at me. I'm having fun with life. And then I look at them and go, what are you doing?

Yes, I'm enjoying. I'm gonna. I'm gonna borrow that too, Tim. I like that. I'm. I. You might not know me, but I'm having fun. Can you say the same? That's great.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's what it's all about, is having fun, you know, expressing ourselves, getting. Getting the crazy ideas that are in here, out there and.And sharing it with the world because nobody else is, you know, pulled these ideas out of my head. So.

Yeah, yeah. No, and there's value in that. And I. I see that for myself. And I mean, that's something that I'm. I'm.I'm also really kind of looking at and seeing and noticing. Again, to reference the YouTube channel building thing, where it's just like, there is. It's like I'm having too many thoughts at one time. It's.It's like, as an artist, as someone who's creating, I don't know. I don't know if I would totally call everything that I'm creating on YouTube art, but I would definitely say that there's artistic elements to it.You know what I'm saying? And the. There's that balance, I think, as a creator, as someone who is making something, where it's like, I do want some outside input.I do want to hear what people's take and insight is on some of it, but not to the point where it's like, I'm changing me or I'm changing my. I think the word could be artistic integrity or, you know what I'm saying? Where it's like, I don't.I don't necessarily want to change all of those things because of the fact that we do see throughout history that some of the most renowned great artists and artists, they did stick true to, like, a certain something, and they didn't, like, you know, mix in on it or. Or quote, unquote, sell out. Yet. Some of the really great artists who I love, like, I love Monet, like Claude Monet to me, like, oh, my God, like, I.I adore his stuff, but I feel like he was someone who was, I think, really, really savvy, and he did live a really good life with that had money in it. Like, I. I don't also. I'm not. I guess what say is like, I don't believe that we as artists have to only be starving artists.You know, I think that there is a balance in there, and I also think outside input is good.But to a certain point, even as a performer, as an actor, you know, it's like, I still have to do certain things where it's like, I might not totally do it this way, but that's what the director is. That's what he's guiding, and that's what his vision is for this.And it's like, okay, that's a given circumstance, and I will take that and I will still bring me to it. So all of that sounds great. It's hard to do sometimes, but for sure.

Yeah, for sure. Well, with, you know, our. The academia, because that's kind of where I come from.In my background with theater, you know, the directors are taught to, you know, this is your vision. And, you know, you gotta mold these actors and these designers and.And then, you know, actors were taught in my school, you know, follow what the director. You know, try to hit what the director is saying, but very little on, you know, what the. You know, what. What are you getting out of it as an actor?And let me see that as a director. Let me see your interpretation of it. I read a book a long time ago called I Believe, A Sense of Direction, and I can't.I can't remember the guy's name to save my life.But his whole approach as a director was to let the actors do whatever they wanted for like, three or four takes, you know, with it, to see what would come out of it. Then he, you know, he. He said, you know, the first time they do something, it's gonna. You're not gonna use it.You just, you know, you're absolutely not gonna use it.

Yeah.

And then when they see it a second time, they'll be like, huh, maybe he's interested in what I'm doing. And on that third time, that's gonna be the one that you're.90% of the time, you're gonna take that third take and you're gonna run with it, because then the actor's like, oh, we're in a partnership here. And.And, you know, the director is going to listen to my ideas no matter how crazy they are, because actors are always told, yeah, you guys are crazy, and all that stuff. So.

No, there's. There's something to that. I know, definitely for. I've been told that by.There's a specific director, Andrew Hunt, here in the Twin Cities, and he told me that once. He's like. He's like, yeah, after watching all of your takes he's like. I was just like, yep, take three or four. Yep, take three or four.Take three or four. You know, so it's interesting to hear that. I think it's not just a Paul Cramp thing. I think it sounds like it's an in general.An in general actor thing, which I can see, too. Gosh, I'm forgetting which director it was.But there's a director who's known for just doing like 20 to 100 takes just to get the actors wore down so that they're just not. They're just not bringing so much of, of probably the. I don't know, when you get tired, you start to just.I don't know, it does, it does strip away some certain things, I suppose, on some level, but some of that too. And actually, I'm going to rant for a second, but like, as an actor, like, I do.There's a point where I've worked with some directors and the word that you just, that you just used, I think was missing from our relationship as a creatives together. Like, it. It felt more like they were trying to be manipulative as opposed to being collaborative.And it's like, I don't actually need you to wear me down so that I don't need you to do 100 takes so that I'm physically tired. Actually, what I need you to do is tell me what you need.Like, if I'm not giving you something as a creative, as a performer, what is it that I'm missing? What is it? What, What's. Because I can do that. I can bring that. I can. I'm. I have a, I'm a. I'm a trained actor. Like, I have technique. Like, I.Let me pull on something. Like, I don't. I don't know. I'm thinking about. There was a director. And again, to his credit and to mine, like, we were both very young and he.It was some of. One of the first times that he was directing, but it was so confusing to me. Some of the things that he did on set, like. And I was like.And, and looking back on it, he even mentioned he's like, oh, I was trying to, like, make it so that you and the other actor had to rely on each other more. Because in the, in the story that the, in the. It was like a survival story of this brother and a sister. And I was like, I don't need you to do that.Like, we're actually, we're. We're able to do that through dialogue and through, like the, the audience is going to believe that because of how.What we're doing, like, Like, I don't. We don't need. We don't need life to mimic art so much. Like, this is. You're just making me frustrated as a.Like, you're not trusting me that I'm going to be able to bring what it is that I say to the table. Yeah. So end of rant.

Well, I'm going to piggyback on that rant and maybe answer a question for you. And that I think sometimes directors, they don't know what they want. They really don't know what they want. Or they.They read the script and then they actually have people in front of them and they go, oh, this is completely different than, you know, what I thought it was going to be.So I think, especially younger directors, I got to admit it, when I was directing my first few plays, I wasn't sure what to look for, what to ask for, or how to convey that to my actors. But then I was on both sides, too. I was acting, lighting design, so the whole kit and caboodle. And I just finally one day just said, you know what?I'm gonna, you know, ask my director exactly what they want, and I'm going to learn to communicate better to my actors.

Yeah.

And once I figured that out and read A Sense of Direction by an art. By an author that I forget his name. So. And I know he's dead, so he can't be on the podcast, but, you know, once I learned how to do that, it was.It was a play, and the play was fun. You know, it was fun for everybody. Everybody was getting something out of it.

So there's, There's. I haven't read A Sense of Direction. I have to. I'll have to look it up. I'll jot myself a note here, but it's making me think of.There was a book that I had read. This would have been a long, quite, quite a few years ago now, but the author is Judith Weston. And the. The title of the book is Directing Actors.A really novel title, but specifically she speaks to film directors. And it. I loved where she took some of it. She really was, I think, giving some insight to directors. And I used. I use a lot of the techniques, too.But, like, she's like, there's just. There's just such wonderful ways that you can get from performers what you need without. Without all of the kind of, like, what I was ranting about.Like, you don't need. You don't need to. You just don't need to be unprofessional just to try to create some sort of a dynamic.Like, one of the things and I'll always remember this is. It's because it's so vivid and so easy, is she was working on a. The. The scene is a family dinner, so.And she had a cast of performers, and she's like, it just wasn't icy enough. Like. Like there wasn't tension in the. In what the actors were doing. And so she told all of them. She's like, I want you all to do another take. As if.If any of you break general etiquette of how you eat, how. What fork you're eating from, and if you spill anything, you are going to go to prison for real. So, like, it.And she's like, it changed the entire feel of every. Everything is. Everybody's still doing all of their lines. They're still doing it in that way.But it's like all of a sudden, there was this heaviness to it. There was this, like, very. You know what I'm saying? It's like, if. If you're an actor, like, to me, that's like, sign me up.I will work with you, Judith. Like. Like, I want. I want to play within that world where it's like, yeah, like, yeah, so. And I feel like that's. That's the sign of.Of a really good creative approach to play. And I feel like that's something for me. That's. This is not just for me. What creative does not want to play?

Exactly, Exactly. That's why they call them plays, because they're fun and you get to play.

Yeah, exactly. It's a sense. I'm writing that book down, by the way. A sense of direction.

A sense of direction, Yep. And I will comb my, you know, vast library behind me, and if I can't find it there, I'll get you a link. Not a problem.And links will be in the show notes.

I'll look. Yeah, absolutely, that.

Because there'll be a quiz after this. And, you know, any listeners answering questions from that quiz, I don't know what I'll give them, but give them something. Give them a T shirt.There you go. So what's the most unexpected source of inspiration that you've encountered in your creative journey?I know a lot of people get inspiration from going out into nature or having a rum and Coke and a half pack of cigarettes. Not that I'm saying that I would do that anymore, but where do you get ears from?

The question is, what's an unexpected Source of inspiration.

Yeah. What's the most unexpected?

Gosh, there's a, there's, there's something I, I and I, and I'm just, I, I just for a moment was like, do I want to share this?And I was like, I've shared this before, but this is the one that, that to, to be really honest with you and really open, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this because I see this throughout art and I see this throughout artists lives. But I think what was probably one of the most unexpected points of inspiration for me was I lost family members.I had, I had, there was a car accident that occurred and there was a lot of art that came out of that for me. And now like being removed from that for, for this happened quite a long time ago.Being more removed from that, I can see where I'm like, that was unexpected just that whole situation.But the creativity and the, I think even the healing that was able to occur from working through art, like using art as like a tool of that was totally not something that I was, that I was, I guess I wasn't aware until that happened how transformative and the creative process can be and how healing it can be. Like that was, yeah, all of those things where it was like that was, that was. Not only was it like this, like that I had so much to get out.Like it was so cathartic. But in retrospect it's not that surprising, I guess now.But looking at that and looking back on it and also looking at great art throughout artist lives, like inspiration. But that would be in my life one of the most unexpected points of inspiration and creativity that I've ever experienced. Wow.

Okay. Yeah, that's awesome to hear. I'm glad that you got to experience, you know, the, the, the healing nature that art can, that art can have.I'm a veteran and when I was living in Chicago, we had a thing called Veteran Art Project and I had done, you know, theater and art and all that kind of stuff. But when I started doing it with those guys and gals, that's when things kicked into high gear and I was just like, wow, this is amazing.And then that's kind of what started this whole podcast.Create Art podcast is dealing with art therapy with folks that are going to be veterans really soon getting out of the army due to ill injured or what have you.

Oh, wow. Okay.

And that, that's, you know, why I do what I do.

Yeah.

And you know, it's amazing what something like that can trigger in you to help you heal yourself from something like that. So I'm glad, I'm sorry that it happened obviously, but me too. I'm glad you got to experience it.

And it's, it's cool to hear that. It's cool to hear and also learn because I've, I know like, like, like I said this was that tragic stuff like that happened.It was quite a while ago, but that journey and also trajectory of just of learning for myself too, of learning, learning about art and learning about.Because since that time too like I, I have interacted just with some like hospitals and things like that for that use art therapy and stuff like that. And it's, it's amazing. It's amazing to me how the impact.It's amazing to me that it actually can be measured where it's just like, oh, we actually can measure this quite a bit and with just even with patients recovery and things like that, it's just like, oh, okay. This isn't just because I can, I can get really woo woo sometimes with art.So it's, it's amazing that it's like, no, this is actually a, a tried and true thing. So it's, that's, that's cool too that you, that you work with vets. I'm so appreciative of that. That's amazing.

Wow. Absolutely.I mean it, it's, it's great that you know, we can have the, the scientific or the, the data or the studies showing our art therapy works instead of us as artists going hey, it works. And we're all woo woo.

And this matters.

Come on. Art matters. You gotta read a book.

Come on. Yes.

Go see a show. If you could collaborate with any artist, living dead or otherwise, who would it be and what would you create together?

Oh gosh, that's a good question. It probably would be. Oh goodness, I'm torn a little bit. I think, I think I'm gonna go with oil paint.I think I would go with, I think I'd go with like something painting wise and I'm such a fan of, of the impressionists. I probably would go with monetary. What would we create together?I would be actually super curious to see what a collaboration would look like of like a series of something. I don't know if you've ever been to the Twin Cities, but like Minnesota in general is so stunning. Like we have the North Shore on Lake Superior.We have nature, nature, nature everywhere, everywhere. I would be very curious to see what that would look like from through the eyes of like someone like monetary.So I would either probably just want to sit next to him and work with him. You know, I will just pour the paint tube out and help or.Yeah, it might not be maybe the most collaborative thing ever, but I'd be curious about that. The other one obviously would be probably a film. Film related, where I'd be curious to maybe, maybe write. Direct. I. I am curious to direct.I have not yet. That's something that I'm curious to do at some point.

But come to the dark side. We have cookies.

You have you directed?

Oh, yeah.

Obviously not.

Not filmed, but. But theater.

Yeah. As one who comes from, from an acting background, I'm pretty sure that I, I know I'd be able to communicate with actors, but we'll see.We'll see when that happens. How did, did you start in acting at all or did you just do directing?

Well, funny you asked that. So I was always a bigger guy and I never wanted to be on stage. Never wanted to be on stage.And we were doing a show and they needed a big dumb truck driver to come through, do a couple of lines and then go. And they're like, tim, you look like a big dumb trucker. Let's go. So I did it.

Yeah.

So all of my parts have been, you know, I did a Christopher Durang where I played the pope and a transvestite in the same show and I stabbed myself to death.

Oh, wow.

Which was interesting how we did that. So I, I've, I've enjoyed playing like bit parts.

Yeah, well, I do.

That's.

That's my bread and butter right there.

Yeah, it's the best because it's. You can put a lot into it, but you know that it's just a bit part. And I can do like, I can line up 10 bit parts and boom, boom, boom, boom.And then there you go. But yeah, I've always enjoyed that. And then improv. I've done improv with a group called Celsation.They're a Latin sketch comedy troupe in Chicago and a lot of them are Second City grads, so.

Oh, super fun.

Go to the Second City stage once.

Very fun. Very fun. I've never, I, I needed to, I need to take some more improv. I've done a lot of improv, but mostly just on working like honest on a film set.But I'd like to, I'd like to sharpen that tool a little bit. That's really cool that you've done that.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, we'll get you hooked up with my folks in Chicago. Well, we'll have Them drive up to, you know.

Yes.

The Twin Cities.

Yes.

And hook you up. Good deal. And. And you said you wanted to work with Monet. Now would you want to work with Monet or William Defoe as Monet?

Oh, let's go with William Defoe as Monet. I like this. I like this a lot. Yes, yes. Maybe for this film, William Defoe can be Monet and I can be. Who's the one who cut his ear off?

Van Gogh.

I'll be Van Gogh, and he can be Monet and we can fight. I don't know. Like, there we go. This would be.

I love it. We're going to make this happen. I'll call up Mr.

Call up to those people.

Yeah, yeah. My people will call his people and, you know, we'll get this all hooked up. Yeah, not a problem. What are you doing next week?

Exactly. Exactly. We've got a camera.

We got a camera. Let's do it. Speaking about movies and all that, what's a moment in your life that you felt was straight out of a movie or a novel?

Oh, God. Straight out of a movie or a novel. I've, you know, because I referenced, like, more of a tragic moment in my life.Like, there's been moments where I have been told quite a bit, actually, by my best friend Catherine. She's. I'll talk to her on the phone. And she's like. She's like, you live in, like, a romantic comedy. She's like, that never happens to anybody.Like, she's like, you're walking down the street and it just starts raining as you're on a date. Like, she's. And I'm trying to think of, like, a specific instance of this happen. Oh, here's one. This is. This is maybe not the most char. It's.I don't know. I was on date number two of my last boyfriend, and I had had a. I had had a. You know. Have you ever had a crown put on, like a. Oh, yeah. So I had.

Had.

I had the temporary on the temper. So. So. And I was on a lunch date, and I kid you not, we're sitting there eating. The tooth fell on the table and. And I didn't say anything.I just quietly reached my hand out, took the tooth and put it in my pocket. He didn't say anything. And it was. It was. And we. We. We. We actually. We dated for a while, and it was a. It was a horrible.I was like, this is like, the moment where, like, in my head, I was like, he must be thinking, like, I Do meth and like, my teeth are falling out. Like, I don't know. But yeah, my friend Catherine, she's like, you live in, like, this romance. She's like, who, Who What? Who does that happen to?Yeah, there's a lot of little moments like that where I think I feel like. Yeah, little moments. I've had quite a few moments when I feel like I'm living, like, in a silly. Like that just happened kind of a. Kind of a vibe.Yeah.

All right, well, we'll call up Willem Dafoe and have him film that. Make a romantic comedy out of it while he plays the green Goblin.

While he plays the green Goblin, Yes. Who likes to paint, apparently.

It's a thing. It's a thing he does. Yeah.

No, that's. That's very funny.

Awesome. Well, Paul, it's been a delight talking with you. I want to thank you so much for joining us here on a creator podcast.I'm going to do my get out of Jail Free card here. I call it my get out of Jail Free card question. Anything that I didn't ask that you would like me to ask?

No, no, this has been. This has been a good. This has been fun to chat with you too, and. And kind of shoot the breeze on creativity and art and everything.Yeah, no, I don't have anything specific. Never have I ever thought that William Defoe as Monet would be as interesting as it has. Has been. So.

Yeah, good deal. Well, like I said, I'm calling his people up tonight, so we'll get this set up and make it happen. Cool. Well, again, thank you, Paul, so much.And thank you very much for joining us here in Create our podcast.

I appreciate you having me on, Tim. It's been really fun.

All right, so that's the episode. I want to thank Paul for joining me here today on Create Art podcast.Learned a lot of great things, things from him and what he's doing and how he is using acting in his creative process.And I think you probably got a lot out of it as well, such as when we were talking about creativity being a transformative tool for healing, especially when you're going through tough times.You heard how we dove into the importance of pushing through creative blocks and comparing artists struggles to, you know, the plumber's work ethic, otherwise known as plumber's crack, and how collaboration in the arts, you know, such as dance, where each partner is. It's a dance where each partner brings their flair while respecting each other's moves.We also joked about perfectionism and you know, I think we both suggested embracing your inner child and creating our evening. You know, like me when it looks like a four year old on crack.And we discussed the role of directors in the creative process and how good communication can lead to some amazing outcomes and, you know, that can be relayed to any artistic pursuit. So if you're wondering how I get great guests like Paul on my show, well, I use a service called PodMatch.And what that does is that allows, you know, podcasters like myself and guests to come together. Now I do receive a small commission for it, but it allows us to come together and create these wonderful episodes for you.Now, I wouldn't bring on anybody on the show that I didn't feel you were going to get something out of. So yeah, I do get a small commission, but that doesn't influence if I bring on a person or not for the show.You can find my affiliate link in the show notes if you want to join up and do that. The other thing that I use, and this is mainly for my podcasters that are out there that listen to the show is a service called PodBeacon.What they do is they provide a wearable for you, such as a wristwatch or a key fob or even a business card. And all the person needs to do is put their phone over that and it'll take them right to your website. So check that out. Podcast Beacon.And I have links in the show notes for that, for my affiliate link for that. And I just want to remind everyone that this is a production of TKB Podcast Studio.That is my new podcast studio company that I started up here in 2025.You can find out more information on that@tkb podcast studio.com and that's where I help my clients, you know, get through all the noise with quiet professionalism. If you're thinking about starting up a podcast, check out the website, see what I've done for other folks and let's see if we can work together.Alright, that does it for me for today. I need to get on with my day. I need. I know you need to get on with your day. So go out there and tame that inner critic. Create more than you consume.Talk to your actor buddies and go out there and make some art for somebody. You love yourself. I'll talk with you again real soon.